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Power steering vs manual steering 

Power Steering Power steering Drifting Grip
38 replies to this topic

#1 TougeMonster_1

  • Joined:15-September 10
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Nissan Silvia S13

Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:33 AM

Hey guys I'm starting to get more confident in driving the touge and trust my s13 more since I put coilovers in, I just came back from a run though the twistys and I had my first real spin out on corner exit, what was weird was I got a bit of oversteer but i didn't really feel it though the steering wheel like I normally do whilst drifting at low speeds/getting oversteer in the wet and caught it too late, is it that the power steering takes away some of that feedback at higher speeds? Or was I just not quick enough to catch it due to lack of experience?

Is it better to grip drive without power steering in s13s/cars in general?
Has anyone ran their s13 without power steering?
Also I've been told about that alloy steering bush you an get how effective are they at improving response?

#2 Shakey Bones

  • Joined:18-September 05
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S15

Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM

WTF driving the Touge? Dude how about you stop watching so many DVDs and read a book. This isn't Initial D.

If you are going to do those kinds of things on the street you need to be smart about it and stop thinking you are even a half way decent driver and drive well within the limits of the car and your personal ability. If you want to push the limits go to the track. The street is for mere practice and fun.


If you had a spin at high speeds I wouldn't be worrying too much about your power steering and think about what you were doing in the moments before the spin? Did you hit the brakes as the car began to slide? etc. By the sounds of it you were carrying too much speed into the corner for your ability and the cars ability.

Also what kind of tyres have you got on that thing? If you are going to be driving at speed on the street don't give me some shit that you have real good Falkens or Nexens or Nankangs. Put some really good rubber on your car something in the vacinity of $300 MINIMUM a corner for 18" wheels.

Have you set your coil overs up properly? or have you just bolted them on and set them up for sight? You should get them corner weighted so you have perfect balance in the car.

Also brakes? and servicing?

If you are going to drive your car at high level on the street it better be set up at a high level otherwise it will be a disasterous end to your story. At the very least you will write off your car, at the very worst you will kill yourself and/or someone else. And by the sounds of it you have a pretty retarded attitude about the whole thing. You aren't playing match box cars and there is no reset button. So you had better have your car up to a great standard Otherwise I suggest going no more than 15-20km over the speed limit on a HILL RUN!

I'm not going to lecture you or even attempt to tell you not to do it. Because we all were young once and it is fun going fast. But IF you are going to do it. Do it smart and stop thinking it is as easy as what you see on TV. Real good driving is developed over time, it is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit. And a poorly set up car is NOT one you want to f**k around with.

Edited by Shakey Bones, 27 June 2012 - 06:07 AM.


#3 Guppy-s14s1

  • Joined:04-September 09
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:S14 series 1

Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:09 AM

*sits and waits for the need for speed/fast and the furious quotes.*

#4 Laundo

  • Joined:06-April 05
  • Location:Australia ACT

Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:50 AM

love how the "advice" is all about how to properly set your car up to illegally drift in the hills :lol: :thumbsup:

#5 TougeMonster_1

  • Joined:15-September 10
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Nissan Silvia S13

Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:15 PM

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

If you had a spin at high speeds I wouldn't be worrying too much about your power steering and think about what you were doing in the moments before the spin? Did you hit the brakes as the car began to slide? etc. By the sounds of it you were carrying too much speed into the corner for your ability and the cars ability.

Yea i did hit the brakes and didnt counter it early enough, car got oversteer on corner exit.

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Also what kind of tyres have you got on that thing? If you are going to be driving at speed on the street don't give me some shit that you have real good Falkens or Nexens or Nankangs. Put some really good rubber on your car something in the vacinity of $300 MINIMUM a corner for 18" wheels.

Why would putting "really good rubber" be a concern as you said "real good driving is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit." with really good tyres i would think the limit would be at a much higher level meaning you want me to go faster? if where up to me i would start from the bottom and work my way up which is what im doing i drive an na sil with cheap tyres and decent suspension, which is fast and gripy enough for me.

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Have you set your coil overs up properly?
My coilovers came with a measuring tool to set height, as for corner weighting seems a bit over kill for someone like me learning the basics...

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Also brakes? and servicing?
I will be upgrading to DET brakes since i did get some brake fade by the end of the run, i service and do all work to my car myself.

This isnt the first time i have tried to drive fast though the hills ive worked up to driving that fast although it was the first time i pushed it that hard since i felt comfortable and i felt i could trust the car at that speed also there wasn't one other car on that road.

I've never once thought driving is easy, it amazes me how good drivers like Keiichi Tsuchiya, Manabu Orido and Nobuteru Taniguchi are when watching hot version and bestmotoing, all of which are real people who learnt to drive on the TOUGE and later became professional racers.

#6 kriss

  • Joined:25-August 08
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:A31 - CHEV

Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:21 PM

lol touge

#7 s14tom

  • Joined:14-February 10
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:S14

Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:34 PM

Maybe install a manual rack out of an 86..... seemed to work well for Keiichi...

#8 Shark

  • Joined:14-April 05
  • Location:Australia VIC

Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:15 PM

Stick to playstation where your slow reflexes won't put anyone else on the road at risk.

If you come on a forum asking people for advice on what went wrong (when obviously none of us saw it), you clearly don't have the driver skill to be driving as hard as you were, nor do you have the maturity.

Edited by Shark, 27 June 2012 - 04:16 PM.


#9 wAnAbEdRiFtEr

  • Joined:28-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:S15 200SX SPEC R

Posted 27 June 2012 - 05:34 PM

Get off the public roads, keep it on the track. I dont want to be killed by an idiot thinking his gotta chance to be on GT Channel with Orido and the like.


douche!

#10 BEAMS

  • Joined:30-June 10
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:ae86

Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:23 PM

yeah deleting power steering will defently stop you spinning out.

#11 OVerKill

  • Joined:21-June 12
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:matchbox

Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostTougeMonster_1, on 27 June 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

If you had a spin at high speeds I wouldn't be worrying too much about your power steering and think about what you were doing in the moments before the spin? Did you hit the brakes as the car began to slide? etc. By the sounds of it you were carrying too much speed into the corner for your ability and the cars ability.

Yea i did hit the brakes and didnt counter it early enough, car got oversteer on corner exit.

then it was you not the car

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Also what kind of tyres have you got on that thing? If you are going to be driving at speed on the street don't give me some shit that you have real good Falkens or Nexens or Nankangs. Put some really good rubber on your car something in the vacinity of $300 MINIMUM a corner for 18" wheels.

Why would putting "really good rubber" be a concern as you said "real good driving is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit." with really good tyres i would think the limit would be at a much higher level meaning you want me to go faster? if where up to me i would start from the bottom and work my way up which is what im doing i drive an na sil with cheap tyres and decent suspension, which is fast and gripy enough for me.

umm because if you trying to go fast then maybe the thing that contacts you to the ground is a very good place for you to start?

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Have you set your coil overs up properly?
My coilovers came with a measuring tool to set height, as for corner weighting seems a bit over kill for someone like me learning the basics...

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Also brakes? and servicing?
I will be upgrading to DET brakes since i did get some brake fade by the end of the run, i service and do all work to my car myself.

This isnt the first time i have tried to drive fast though the hills ive worked up to driving that fast although it was the first time i pushed it that hard since i felt comfortable and i felt i could trust the car at that speed also there wasn't one other car on that road.

I've never once thought driving is easy, it amazes me how good drivers like Keiichi Tsuchiya, Manabu Orido and Nobuteru Taniguchi are when watching hot version and bestmotoing, all of which are real people who learnt to drive on the TOUGE and later became professional racers.

the problem is that there are other cars on the road. around those corners that you cant see the exit.
these days we have access to race tracks and driving schools.

#12 Shakey Bones

  • Joined:18-September 05
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S15

Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:36 PM

View PostDandrenat, on 27 June 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

love how the "advice" is all about how to properly set your car up to illegally drift in the hills Posted Image Posted Image

Well the kid clearly isn't going to listen to someone on the internet saying 'Oh you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that' I would rather give him advice on how to keep his car on the road rather than the same old shit he could just turn ACA on for.
We all were on our P's once, we all thought what we saw on DVDs was easy and we all wanted to give it ago. So I figured I'd offer some actual useful advice.

Also his post was well into the morning the chances of a family driving around some back mountain road are very very slim. That is pretty much the best time to be doing that kind of driving.


View PostTougeMonster_1, on 27 June 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Why would putting "really good rubber" be a concern as you said "real good driving is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit." with really good tyres i would think the limit would be at a much higher level meaning you want me to go faster? if where up to me i would start from the bottom and work my way up which is what im doing i drive an na sil with cheap tyres and decent suspension, which is fast and gripy enough for me.

Well if you are going to be using cheap shitty tyres I don't want to hear about you carrying speed. Tyres are pretty much the single most IMPORTANT handling mod a car can have. You can put the best coil overs on your car you want, you can set them up, you can get bushes, awesome brakes and a whole list of flashy mods and expensive parts but with even decent tyres you will have an uncontrollable car at the limit and a poor handling one to boot.

So if you want to 'learn' on cheap tyres stick to NO more than 20km over the speed limit at any one time and only drive fast in the dry. If you want to drive faster than 20km over the limit buy good rubber otherwise you will continue to spin out and next time it might be into a guard rail and you next thread title will be "Where are good pannel beaters In Victoria"

Also by having better rubber you will be able to feel the limit of the car coming. Cheap rubber tends to grip, grip, grip then let go. Where good rubber will still be controllable once it starts to slide. BELIEVE ME when I say I know about this FIRST hand. I used to drive around on cheap rubber with all the expensive suspension parts thinking my car handled well. It is NOTHING until you have good tyres. I recommend something like a Toyo T1R and Bridgestone Adrenaline as a MINIMUM if you want to drive fast.

Plus on good rubber you can carry more speed and G's into a corner and it will give you so much more confidence in the car and thus so much more fun.

But look if you don't have the money or you don't want to put good rubber on your car, then fine. Just keep your speed down. Take it from someone who knows and has learned from the hard way. As I know the the owner of a local panel beater by his first name. Believe me you want to spend your money on mods not repairs.

Edited by Shakey Bones, 27 June 2012 - 09:37 PM.


#13 BEAMS

  • Joined:30-June 10
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:ae86

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:20 PM

wouldn't removing power steering effectively bring the car up to that handeling level?

#14 blingcommander

  • Joined:05-October 06
  • Location:Japan
  • Car:Scooty-Puff Jr.

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:23 PM

have removed ps on a s13 and imo it sucked.

#15 lukey d

  • Joined:17-July 11
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:1992 s13

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

WTF driving the Touge? Dude how about you stop watching so many DVDs and read a book. This isn't Initial D.

If you are going to do those kinds of things on the street you need to be smart about it and stop thinking you are even a half way decent driver and drive well within the limits of the car and your personal ability. If you want to push the limits go to the track. The street is for mere practice and fun.


If you had a spin at high speeds I wouldn't be worrying too much about your power steering and think about what you were doing in the moments before the spin? Did you hit the brakes as the car began to slide? etc. By the sounds of it you were carrying too much speed into the corner for your ability and the cars ability.

Also what kind of tyres have you got on that thing? If you are going to be driving at speed on the street don't give me some shit that you have real good Falkens or Nexens or Nankangs. Put some really good rubber on your car something in the vacinity of $300 MINIMUM a corner for 18" wheels.

Have you set your coil overs up properly? or have you just bolted them on and set them up for sight? You should get them corner weighted so you have perfect balance in the car.

Also brakes? and servicing?

If you are going to drive your car at high level on the street it better be set up at a high level otherwise it will be a disasterous end to your story. At the very least you will write off your car, at the very worst you will kill yourself and/or someone else. And by the sounds of it you have a pretty retarded attitude about the whole thing. You aren't playing match box cars and there is no reset button. So you had better have your car up to a great standard Otherwise I suggest going no more than 15-20km over the speed limit on a HILL RUN!

I'm not going to lecture you or even attempt to tell you not to do it. Because we all were young once and it is fun going fast. But IF you are going to do it. Do it smart and stop thinking it is as easy as what you see on TV. Real good driving is developed over time, it is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit. And a poorly set up car is NOT one you want to f**k around with.

+1 for not being a total ass about it like 90% of the users on the internet these days and giving advice

#16 wAnAbEdRiFtEr

  • Joined:28-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:S15 200SX SPEC R

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:35 PM

View Postlukey d, on 27 June 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

View PostShakey Bones, on 27 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

WTF driving the Touge? Dude how about you stop watching so many DVDs and read a book. This isn't Initial D.

If you are going to do those kinds of things on the street you need to be smart about it and stop thinking you are even a half way decent driver and drive well within the limits of the car and your personal ability. If you want to push the limits go to the track. The street is for mere practice and fun.


If you had a spin at high speeds I wouldn't be worrying too much about your power steering and think about what you were doing in the moments before the spin? Did you hit the brakes as the car began to slide? etc. By the sounds of it you were carrying too much speed into the corner for your ability and the cars ability.

Also what kind of tyres have you got on that thing? If you are going to be driving at speed on the street don't give me some shit that you have real good Falkens or Nexens or Nankangs. Put some really good rubber on your car something in the vacinity of $300 MINIMUM a corner for 18" wheels.

Have you set your coil overs up properly? or have you just bolted them on and set them up for sight? You should get them corner weighted so you have perfect balance in the car.

Also brakes? and servicing?

If you are going to drive your car at high level on the street it better be set up at a high level otherwise it will be a disasterous end to your story. At the very least you will write off your car, at the very worst you will kill yourself and/or someone else. And by the sounds of it you have a pretty retarded attitude about the whole thing. You aren't playing match box cars and there is no reset button. So you had better have your car up to a great standard Otherwise I suggest going no more than 15-20km over the speed limit on a HILL RUN!

I'm not going to lecture you or even attempt to tell you not to do it. Because we all were young once and it is fun going fast. But IF you are going to do it. Do it smart and stop thinking it is as easy as what you see on TV. Real good driving is developed over time, it is developed from learning and experiencing how a car behaves near and at the limit. And a poorly set up car is NOT one you want to f**k around with.

+1 for not being a total ass about it like 90% of the users on the internet these days and giving advice

Giving advice to his question would just encourage this idiot to go back on the streets to be more of an idiot. ur ignorant till u cause someone to lose their life

#17 Shakey Bones

  • Joined:18-September 05
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S15

Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:32 AM

View PostwAnAbEdRiFtEr, on 27 June 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Giving advice to his question would just encourage this idiot to go back on the streets to be more of an idiot. ur ignorant till u cause someone to lose their life

I'm not encouraging anything. But as if he is going to listen to someone on the internet when they say don't do something? Yeah right.

I'd rather give him advice that he can use to keep his car on the road and out of the barriers.

Do I think it is a good idea, no not really but I'm not a hypocrite I've done it and I f**king loved it. I bet you have gone on mountain runs as well, and if you haven't you are missing out on very significant part of owning a car.

#18 TougeMonster_1

  • Joined:15-September 10
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Nissan Silvia S13

Posted 28 June 2012 - 04:06 AM

Thanks for your advice Shakey Bones you broadened my thoughts of driving more specifically driving fast, what you wrote about the cheap vs good tyres i think i get what you mean, and that really made me think.

Sounds like you really know from experience and i am really glad i might not have to learn it the hard way.

Also thanks for understanding that im not one of those stereo type "Hoons" you see on aca every other month.

Some people dont realize driving can be an expression or sport and on the other end transportation or idiotic fun.

not everyone has the time and money to go to track days but the best i can do is to minimize the risk i never drive over anything that isnt well within my capability in exception of well into the morning on mountain roads or no traffic areas, sorry if sometimes i get a little caught in the moment and push it little beyond my own limit thats human nature where would we be if no one where ever to push the boundaries.

I dont want to miss out on this part of owning a car even if its not the safest or best part cause it sure is great.

Edited by TougeMonster_1, 28 June 2012 - 04:10 AM.


#19 _R_J_K_

  • Joined:11-December 10
  • Location:Australia ACT
  • Car:Zenki S14

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:02 AM

View PostTougeMonster_1, on 28 June 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

I dont want to miss out on this part of owning a car even if its not the safest or best part cause it sure is great.

How is this "part of owning a car"? Does the car make you drive like this? Is the car self aware?

Edited by _R_J_K_, 28 June 2012 - 09:03 AM.


#20 kriss

  • Joined:25-August 08
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:A31 - CHEV

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:22 AM

And why would you miss out? Take it to a track and drive it as hard as you want

#21 ZeroFallen

  • Joined:10-February 05
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:1989 S13 Silvia Ks

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:36 AM

If you can afford the fines from getting caught "driving the touge" then you can afford track days.

#22 Shark

  • Joined:14-April 05
  • Location:Australia VIC

Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:02 PM

View PostTougeMonster_1, on 28 June 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

Thanks for your advice Shakey Bones you broadened my thoughts of driving more specifically driving fast, what you wrote about the cheap vs good tyres i think i get what you mean, and that really made me think.

Sounds like you really know from experience and i am really glad i might not have to learn it the hard way.

Also thanks for understanding that im not one of those stereo type "Hoons" you see on aca every other month.

Some people dont realize driving can be an expression or sport and on the other end transportation or idiotic fun.

not everyone has the time and money to go to track days but the best i can do is to minimize the risk i never drive over anything that isnt well within my capability in exception of well into the morning on mountain roads or no traffic areas, sorry if sometimes i get a little caught in the moment and push it little beyond my own limit thats human nature where would we be if no one where ever to push the boundaries.

I dont want to miss out on this part of owning a car even if its not the safest or best part cause it sure is great.
And yet, you come on here asking us why you spun out on PUBLIC ROADS because even you don't know?

:angry:
There is no way I will not point out how much your logic has just failed.

You stated you drive well within your limits and then go on to say that you 'sometimes get caught in the moment and push it beyond your limit.'
You have essentially contradicted yourself in every post.

I don't want anyone I know to miss out on being able to live their life, all because some *richard cranium* doesn't want to 'miss out on driving a car beyond his limits on the road,' and ends up killing an innocent person.

I am astounded and saddened your attitude. You are part of the reason why car enthusiasts negatively.

As I said before, you obviously don't have the maturity to be driving a modified vehicle if you still can't wrap your head around the fact it's not just YOUR life you're putting at risk when you do these things.
Get your attitude in check.

Edited by Shark, 28 June 2012 - 05:12 PM.


#23 negativecamber

  • Joined:14-April 04
  • Location:Australia QLD

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:20 PM

you shouldnt be braking after an apex. thats the simplest answer i can give. also dont get det brakes, just go straight to a z32 setup for cheap brakes. when you're a noob you'll be on the brakes like a mofo and learn what brake fade will do on a touge run, scary shit.

#24 _R_J_K_

  • Joined:11-December 10
  • Location:Australia ACT
  • Car:Zenki S14

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostTougeMonster_1, on 28 June 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

where would we be if no one where ever to push the boundaries.

There'd be a lot more driftable cars, that's for sure.

#25 lukey d

  • Joined:17-July 11
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:1992 s13

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:13 PM

View Postnegativecamber, on 28 June 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

you shouldnt be braking after an apex. thats the simplest answer i can give. also dont get det brakes, just go straight to a z32 setup for cheap brakes. when you're a noob you'll be on the brakes like a mofo and learn what brake fade will do on a touge run, scary shit.

dont break after the apex is that to carry speed out of the corner? or does that make it easy to spin, understeer or something?

#26 OVerKill

  • Joined:21-June 12
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:matchbox

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:40 PM

go find a medium sized roundabout and keep going round faster and faster. that way you'll feel the car and learn its traction point while not going stupidly fast.

#27 skedy

  • Joined:21-July 04
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:180sx

Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:10 AM

slow in fast out
try and brake in a straight line before the corner. you either braked mid corner or carried way too much speed into the corner.

read up on the net about basic motor racing techniques lines, braking points, apex etc etc.

lastly get some good tyres and take it to the track! you think its fun on a mountain run? its 10x better on the track

your in vic so head to the winton fun day on july 7th

its $35 to run around the track sooo cheap!

#28 Guppy-s14s1

  • Joined:04-September 09
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:S14 series 1

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:51 PM

Got this from another post not sure if this is how to post it tho... Might be of some use to u..

View PostBakemonoRicer, on 28 June 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Had an immaculate S13 (all original panels, 100% straight, and all seam welds)....went up to a mountain a few times (due to being influenced by a mate - but he is not to blame it was my own fault)...which has since become a hotspot where people go with their cars.

Was 11pm at night and after the high speed straight slowed down to 130-140 on enter to a bend, and another car coming up the mountain had cut the double lines. I changed my line to avoid the oncoming car and braked a bit too hard, and the rear end snapped out and I counter-steered, went sliding for 55 metres and then came off the road. In hindsight, should of pulled up the handbrake to try keep it on the road. Didn't help the car was auto either and sr20de as I had no hope of powering out of it. I had big plans for it and planned to keep it as long as I lived. Was going to save up for the whole tomei genesis thing.

Still upsets me and I miss my car a lot. Came out of the accident with a stratched cornea (I think it was worse as the vision in my right eye does not seem 100%) due to a tree branch coming in the car, and also avoided the tree where a guy had died 1 year ago. Had a bit of whiplash too. Funny how things turn out, that tree the kid died at was 3 metres away. I guess I cheated death. Hit the tree first on the drivers side, then got spun around 180 degrees which is why im facing the other way in the pic (taken the next morning as I went to hospital at night). The other car drove off, some hoon spec VZ commodore with big crome wheels.

I have an S15 now, but I still always will prefer the S13 i used to have.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Edited by Guppy-s14s1, 29 June 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#29 kriss

  • Joined:25-August 08
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:A31 - CHEV

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:54 PM

so useful you posted it 3 times?

#30 Varvs

  • Joined:21-December 07
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:97 180sx Type X

Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:11 PM

Seriously think we should start banning *milkshakes* that openly discuss being f**kwits on the road.

brings us all down.





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