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boots back on the ground in Iraq 

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#1 chris_c30

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 04:57 PM

opinions, thoughts?

#2 DannyR34

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 05:34 PM

f**king hate it. we shouldn't be there. we should have nothing to do with it.

#3 chris_c30

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 06:36 PM

not sure if i agree, not just the beheading of westerners, which im sure from your previous comment you dont think they should even of been there, but the mass murders its crazy and its all religion

its like what if people had the same opinion about nazi controlled Germany it was just someone elses problem not to worry about it, it was a bit of a different situation but should the world be atleast doing something about it

Edited by chris_c30, 14 September 2014 - 06:46 PM.


#4 DannyR34

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 07:04 PM

I know what you mean.
At least when hitler did something in-humane he tried to conceal it/hide it from the rest of the world
These ISIS pricks are posting it online!!! on youtube or whatever!
shits crazy...
Noahs ark come at me. lol

#5 S15_Steph

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 07:48 PM

A comparo to Nazi Germany is a little different, as it wasnt an ingrained religion, but an encouraged belief in their country. Honestly I dont think it is something tht will be ever solved, due to the extremist/ isolationist nature of the crazies in the mid east. But due to removing the dictator that had it all under control (however evil he was), I believe he are obliged to make an appearance, but would rather not have troops on the ground. There is a sad, resigned part of me that wishes the extremists on both sides would just blow themselves all sky high, and someone with some sense could try to reign things in.

#6 chris_c30

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:17 PM

its almost as if they want the west to retaliate by making it so public and bragging about it all, its either there plan or there just that crazy

#7 Element Unknown

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:34 AM

I am all for it, fkem wipe them all out, we also need to do more domestically.

#8 chris_c30

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 05:44 PM

i totally agree i just worry about the problems that will happen here as we fight over there, how many of the people living here have the same hardcore beliefs, they've already started to try and change too much around here and we let them all because we want to be politically correct and dont want to step on toes?

#9 DannyR34

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 06:08 PM

anyone see this shit in the news today about some stolen rocket launchers form way back in 2002?
Story goes - some Navy General stole a few rocket launches and sold them to some crime boss, the General is in Jail.
The crime boss sold them to some muslims or isis people or whatever (can't remember now)

long story short - apparently the rocket launches are still in aus and its believed they are buried in the bush waiting for these terrorists to dig them up and f**k shit up.

linky - http://www.geelongad...h-1227058405350

Edited by DannyR34, 15 September 2014 - 06:08 PM.


#10 chris_c30

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 06:21 PM

yeh i saw that shits f**ked up

#11 mUnky-matt

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 07:06 PM

I think that the biggest strategic mistake of the last two decades has been flimsy support for getting the job done. I don't mean sending greater military forces to eradicate 'extremists'; I mean that the West, in general, has failed to promote development after creating power vacuums. Hussein was crazy but his rapid removal created more problems than it solved and the pattern repeats itself in other countries (Arab Spring, anyone?). Afghanistan is slightly trickier because the Taliban there are entrenched socially and culturally more than they are militarily.

Either way, the West has destabilised the region to the point where there is no way to encourage them (the youth) to live normal lives; their entire recent history is that westerners come and wreck their shit; It's no wonder their youth is like putty to the seasoned extremist leadership. Now they have this crazy ISIS banner to unite under - it's a telling sign when even the Al-qaeda don't even want to liaise with them publicly.

This might sound like an anti-war rant, but it's not. Regardless of whether we were supposed to go there or not, we have adopted at least some measure of responsibility for the outcome. Not total responsibility or anything close to that but enough that we should at least make a real effort to sort things out.

#12 chris_c30

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 07:16 PM

I dont see an end game no matter how many of them we eradicate It will just be used to fuel the hatred for the young in iraq and abroad
I guess what I'm trying to say is its not like a normal army where you take out the ranks and hopefully it crumbles, its a religion with soldiers that only know the religion whatever we do they will probably be encouraged

Edited by chris_c30, 15 September 2014 - 07:21 PM.


#13 Tim Sil80

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 07:36 PM

https://www.youtube....h?v=sLMLXi8L9PA

#14 Element Unknown

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 08:50 PM

^^^ LOL that Christian propaganda video is sooo bad.

This is a pretty good primer on isis http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5717157

Also a good analysis of beheadings in history as war propaganda http://pando.com/201...-as-propaganda/

Edited by HumanHefner, 16 September 2014 - 10:24 AM.


#15 Chappy

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:38 PM

I am not surprised it has come to this, as we left the place in a shambles with a joke of an army to guard the place.

What i do not understand is how a western backed, funded and trained army cannot stand against a bunch of rebels. What have the rebels got that is so special?

I don't want to see a full scale occupation like we had before, it was never going to work and it was costing lives by the day.

I want to see special forces ops carried out in the dark and on the sly. Beat them at their own game.

Also that way the general population will have little or no visibility of western nations killing their people, and will have less reason to get pissy.

Give it another 20 years and if we can't sort that shit out, just nuke the place and turn it into a giant glass lake.

#16 Wrexy

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 04:47 PM

https://www.youtube....Up5Bdg-0_JTYFNw

Edited by Wrexy, 10 October 2014 - 06:19 PM.


#17 Spazo

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:58 PM

We have this assumption that if we don't help, America will turn its back on us. I wonder what would really happen if we said "no, we can't really afford to go to war, and our people are mostly against it. We have an ageing population to support and we're already cutting back on our welfare, raising taxes etc etc so we can't afford to play cowboys, sorry.''

And it's all a bit silly to me (war)... this is the surveillance age, we have satellites, we have drones and god knows what else. Is it really so hard to send some secret agents and snipers to take out the ring leaders? Or fly a drone into their backyard and blow them up? Or some biological warfare shit? I dunno, anything. Instead we take this shotgun approach and bring a whole bunch of innocent people into it.

#18 Wrexy

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:37 AM

It's just an excuse to enter the country

#19 chris_c30

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:11 AM

Drone strikes seem to be like using a machette instead of a scalpel, the civilian casualties seem to be too high, I dont see how you could ever succeed in a situation like this, especially when we have a growing muslim population condemning the whole war, I would think they would be all for the country that adopted them trying to defend the country they ran from, and training the iraq forces was a waste of time

#20 Varvs

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:46 AM

getting sent to war by foreign nations is great. Just look how well it has worked out in the past.

maybe this time it will be better!

#21 pmod

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:08 PM

My recollection of the Iraq war was that America tried to rebuild, but they kept having issues with the engineers, etc being attacked and their efforts otherwise thwarted. Their failing looked to be that they didn't have an adequate plan to account for the extremists trying to hinder the rebuild, so it all became a big failure.

The interesting point that was raised was how Saddam "had it under control", and that "it's worse now". I find that a strange concept, given just how brutal Saddam's regime was. Granted, the ISIS groups couldn't really prosper with the Secret Police of the Iraqi governement, along with the murders, torture, Chemical warfare, ethnic cleansings and similar, but then again nobody else could either, including normal citizens. ISIS still have a long way to go before they reach Saddams level of carnage, considering the guy killed over a million of his own people and a million of his neighbours, but if left unchecked who knows.

The real issue with the ISIS groups is that they get harboured by the civilians and unlike someone like Saddam, they feel safe in their anonymity to kill Western civilians, as they don't personally have a whole country to lose by doing it. This is compounded by the bleeding-heart Western do-gooders that can't help but interfere in politics, labelling everything as wrong/unjust/unethical/etc, the young d*ckheads that constantly crap on about how evil the west is using their standard nonsensical rhetoric, and the local ethnic populace who are given a voice on platforms upon which they should not even be noticed.

There are some basic truths in the whole situation. One is that the ISIS-type groups are bad news for Westerners and Muslims alike, as they kill as many of their own people (if not more) as they do Westerners, and they deserve no form of support from either camp. People saying the opposite in public forums should be removed from the discussion immediately, as they have nothing of value to offer. This includes both Western activists and Muslim groups.

Another truth is that their "trying to free Iraq/Afghanistan from the tyrant USA" statements are absolute nonsense, and again, we should not tollerate anyone here publically flying that flag in their defence. The Western people they target are almost always non-combatants, who are there to help the locals and give the country free sh*t, and the locals are just regular folk in the wrong place, at the wrong time. ISIS's tactics aren't in any way designed to free anyone or anything, they simply murder non-combatants to encourage reduced aid for the locals, weaken their resolve and allow the so-called 'rebel forces' (or whatever label Muslims like to apply to them) to gain more control over them. Attacking Western military would give them more credibility, but that doesn't happen as often.

A final truth that often gets overlooked imo is that the whole "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" rhetoric is complete bs. It's easy for me to sit in the comfort of my chair and type on my keyboard that the only effective solution to these groups is to kill all the members off, but that is the sad reality. You won't convince fanatical sociopathic murders so stop killing people any easier than you will flush a brick down a toilet. I don't necessarily believe that doing so will simply garner more support for them either, as a lot of their members are brainwashed into the group by the group's members, and eliminating those members stops a big part of their recruitment mechanism.

#22 chris_c30

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:28 PM

Cut the serpent off at the head and hope the rest of the body dies off with it? I worry that that will only encourage the youth, tensions are rising here also its a worrying situation

#23 Spazo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM

America took the land and homes of Palestinians and gave it to the Jews. Imagine if America kicked us out of our own country and gave it to the Jews, would we be mad?

What if they fabricated a story about us harbouring weapons of mass destruction and used it as an excuse to invade, all in the wake of some terrorist event, would you hate them?

I'm really not well versed on any of this but people don't seem to see both sides of the story. Those sorts of events can make people quite bitter and vicious, and when you're small and you're being bullied by a giant, you do have to kick him in the nuts, and by that I mean fight dirty. They can't afford jets, tanks, weaponry the way the US can. Cowardly sneaky, doggy warfare is all they've got really.

Edited by Spazo, 13 October 2014 - 07:55 PM.


#24 pmod

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 01:05 AM

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

America took the land and homes of Palestinians and gave it to the Jews. Imagine if America kicked us out of our own country and gave it to the Jews, would we be mad?

Lmao, oh man.

A. America had all but nothing to do with the Jews being settled in Palestine; it was the British.

B. The Brittish didn't "kick the Palestinians out of their country", they allocated to the Jews less than a quarter of the region, after the Ottoman Empire (i.e. Muslims) lost WW1 to the Allies.

C. The Jewish people had constant historical ties to that region for over 3700 years, so if you feel the need to say that the land belongs to a certain people based on prior occupation, it would be them.

D. The land was a complete sh*thole before the Jews/Zionists were settled there. The Palestinians weren't losing good land, they were gaining the cultivation of a degraded region, and even Arabs of the time commented that the area needed the Jew's money/knowledge/skills to resurrect it. The Jews did a fantastic job is cultivating the area, but instead of being happy about it, the local Palestinians were complete f**kwits instead. Ya know.... because Qur'an.

E. The Zionists ended up taking the entire region only after all the surrounding Muslim nations banded together to try and kill them, but lost their air force in a lucky preemptive strike by the Jews. The Western powers of the time had all but NO input in this conflict; it was a simple case of the Muslims effectively trying to ethnic-cleanse an area, then losing the whole area.

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

What if they fabricated a story about us harbouring weapons of mass destruction and used it as an excuse to invade, all in the wake of some terrorist event, would you hate them?

Don't try to appeal to people's emotions over events for which the information really isn't known. A lot of information about the WMD inspection process wasn't released to the public, and even if WMDs were found and everything was legit, people hate other people for sometimes no reason at all.

For instance, a notable portion of your example group thinks that all Jews should die, because the Qur'an says so.

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

I'm really not well versed on any of this but people don't seem to see both sides of the story. Those sorts of events can make people quite bitter and vicious, and when you're small and you're being bullied by a giant, you do have to kick him in the nuts, and by that I mean fight dirty. They can't afford jets, tanks, weaponry the way the US can. Cowardly sneaky, doggy warfare is all they've got really.

I really can't be bothered writing enough to address this, so I'll just make a few points.
  • The people in question have been bitter for 1000 years prior to the US invading.
  • The people in question were not "being bullied by a Giant"; you're talking about a regime that harbored known terrorists, provided aid to known terrorists, had ethnically cleansed 1 million Iraqis and invaded Iran killing over 1 million Iranians.
  • "Cowardly sneaky, doggy warfare" is called Guerrilla warfare, and that's what the Vietnamese did. What those guys are doing is no different to the Mongols building a pyramid of severed heads to demoralise their enemy, and make them surrender. Murdering your own people by bombing or publically decapitating a journalist isn't what Guerrilla warfare is all about.


#25 chris_c30

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:47 AM

Guerilla warfare is doing what you have to to survive these people are animals without honor killing in the name of a book

#26 Varvs

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:05 AM

View Postchris_c30, on 14 October 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Guerilla warfare is doing what you have to to survive these people are animals without honor killing in the name of a book

Yeah, no other religion has ever done that before :rolleyes:

#27 pmod

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:38 AM

View PostVarvs, on 14 October 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

View Postchris_c30, on 14 October 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Guerilla warfare is doing what you have to to survive these people are animals without honor killing in the name of a book

Yeah, no other religion has ever done that before Posted Image

If I walked down George St and saw a guy taking a dump in the gutter, I'd call him a dirty bastard, in spite of the fact that there weren't toilets all over the place 1000 years ago. Opinions are made within the context of time and change.

#28 Varvs

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 10:34 AM

Catholic/Christian/Jew extremists are still all killing other people based on their beliefs today, just as Islamic extremists are. The guy in Norway in 2011 was a christian. Africa has plenty of Christian guerilla armies comprised of child soldiers. The KKK still operates. bombing abortion clinics and assaulting doctors who work in them is a christian thing too.

#29 Spazo

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 11:04 AM

View Postpmod, on 14 October 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

America took the land and homes of Palestinians and gave it to the Jews. Imagine if America kicked us out of our own country and gave it to the Jews, would we be mad?

Lmao, oh man.

A. America had all but nothing to do with the Jews being settled in Palestine; it was the British.

B. The Brittish didn't "kick the Palestinians out of their country", they allocated to the Jews less than a quarter of the region, after the Ottoman Empire (i.e. Muslims) lost WW1 to the Allies.

C. The Jewish people had constant historical ties to that region for over 3700 years, so if you feel the need to say that the land belongs to a certain people based on prior occupation, it would be them.

D. The land was a complete sh*thole before the Jews/Zionists were settled there. The Palestinians weren't losing good land, they were gaining the cultivation of a degraded region, and even Arabs of the time commented that the area needed the Jew's money/knowledge/skills to resurrect it. The Jews did a fantastic job is cultivating the area, but instead of being happy about it, the local Palestinians were complete f**kwits instead. Ya know.... because Qur'an.

E. The Zionists ended up taking the entire region only after all the surrounding Muslim nations banded together to try and kill them, but lost their air force in a lucky preemptive strike by the Jews. The Western powers of the time had all but NO input in this conflict; it was a simple case of the Muslims effectively trying to ethnic-cleanse an area, then losing the whole area.

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

What if they fabricated a story about us harbouring weapons of mass destruction and used it as an excuse to invade, all in the wake of some terrorist event, would you hate them?

Don't try to appeal to people's emotions over events for which the information really isn't known. A lot of information about the WMD inspection process wasn't released to the public, and even if WMDs were found and everything was legit, people hate other people for sometimes no reason at all.

For instance, a notable portion of your example group thinks that all Jews should die, because the Qur'an says so.

View PostSpazo, on 13 October 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

I'm really not well versed on any of this but people don't seem to see both sides of the story. Those sorts of events can make people quite bitter and vicious, and when you're small and you're being bullied by a giant, you do have to kick him in the nuts, and by that I mean fight dirty. They can't afford jets, tanks, weaponry the way the US can. Cowardly sneaky, doggy warfare is all they've got really.

I really can't be bothered writing enough to address this, so I'll just make a few points.
  • The people in question have been bitter for 1000 years prior to the US invading.
  • The people in question were not "being bullied by a Giant"; you're talking about a regime that harbored known terrorists, provided aid to known terrorists, had ethnically cleansed 1 million Iraqis and invaded Iran killing over 1 million Iranians.
  • "Cowardly sneaky, doggy warfare" is called Guerrilla warfare, and that's what the Vietnamese did. What those guys are doing is no different to the Mongols building a pyramid of severed heads to demoralise their enemy, and make them surrender. Murdering your own people by bombing or publically decapitating a journalist isn't what Guerrilla warfare is all about.

I can't really comment on too much of this other than to say the WMD intelligence was crap. John Howard spoke in an interview about deploying troops to Iraq recently and he was very embarrassed and ashamed when it was found there weren't any WMD's. He (and Tony Blair) genuinely believed there were WMD's and they were talked into it, so to me that indicates there was corrupt intelligence (who knows what Bush knew/thought) and both the English and Aus were duped into going to war.

It's hotly contested but saying you occupied land 3,000 years ago doesn't give you the right to kick people out of their homes because, well that was f**kin ages ago and they could be making it up. We took the aboriginals country 200 years ago, American Indians lost their country 400 years ago and most people see that as "fair game".

I wonder what a Palestinian would have to say about these assertions, because I'm sure that Jews in America and in the media have worked pretty hard to twist the story in their favour and portray Palestinians (and Muslims) as savage rebels without a cause. You seem quite convinced of many of the comments you've made but I am just a little skeptical. As I said I'm not really into this stuff but where there's smoke there's fire and while we might be right to side with the west, I don't think we (the people) have all the facts and many assume that Muslims are crazy bombing, beheading, plane crashing folk for no reason.

#30 Chappy

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 11:56 AM

Spazo, the simple fact that jews were a race without a home country prior to the creation of Israel should hint to you that the occupants of that land prior to Israel's creation are not entirely without blame.

I wish it was an un-written rule that anybody who choses to criticize the creation of the Jewish Reserve by the British (which later became Israel) should be required to first propose a better solution to Jews being scattered all over the world and welcome nowhere.

Edited by Chappy, 14 October 2014 - 11:57 AM.






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