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#61 m&m

  • Joined:16-October 04
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Silver Evo 7

Posted 07 May 2006 - 05:39 PM

Neil,eggs REALLY are good for you.You know the yolk contains lecithin,which alot of companies use in their fat burning products.
Mother nature really is very smart.Eat natural foods and you wont be struck down by one of the many diseases we have introduced through the use of processed foods.

There are far more relevant things to argue about in regards to diet than the inclusion of eggs.I still cant get over how much bread people eat,it's like tuna sandwich,chicken sandwich,steak sandwich,lose the bread,lose the gut.

#62 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 07 May 2006 - 05:51 PM

C'mon buoy, don't give up yet. You've started a debate based on evidence with someone who's done this for years, so at least support your argument with something other that what google says, or that we'll have to agree to disagree. This is a debate and i'd love to see a decent response based on evidence I'm interested to hear how you managed to draw conclusions completely irrelevant to the results of the studies, and fail to highlight that the results of all of those studies are that increases in dietary cholesterol increase plasma cholesterol and LDL.

Since you obviously don't realise the flaws in your argument, i'll highlight them all again:

Quote

The study also found that in both groups cholesterol absorption and cholesterol synthesis were decreased on the high cholesterol diet.
No it didn't, you've misquoted the results to suit your argument.


Quote

The authors concluded that "a moderate egg intake should not be rigorously restricted in healthy individuals."
No they didn't, you've pulled a quote from a completely different study.


Quote

The study also provides evidence which suggests that resistance to the effects of dietary cholesterol occurs in older men and women and is not limited to only young, healthy volunteers.
No it doesn't, that conclusion has nothing to do with this study.



Quote

The results from this study provide evidence that one effect of an increase in dietary cholesterol is a decease in cholesterol synthesis by the body to compensate for the change. The precision of this mechanisms helps maintain plasma cholesterol levels constant.
Again, nothing to do with that study.



Quote

As found in the previous study in healthy young men, young women have the ability to compensate for an increased intake of cholesterol by adjusting the way cholesterol is handled by the body. The data show that addition of two eggs per day to the diet of healthy young women has little effect on plasma cholesterol levels in the majority of study subjects.
Again, you've just made up a conclusion that has nothing to do with the study, then misquoted the results.


I'm aware that there's going to be individual case studies that disagree with the normal trends, but that's what RCTs control for. That's why we have controlled trials before, for example, we put drugs into production, not just "omg this guy ate peanut butter sandwiches for a year and it cured his cancer!"

View Postm&m, on May 7 2006, 06:22 PM, said:

Neil,eggs REALLY are good for you.

I realise that, but this debate started with the premise that eating eggs in high quantities leads to the increase in blood cholesterol for the majority of people, which i have proven with numerous well conducted studies from high quality journals.

#63 m&m

  • Joined:16-October 04
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Silver Evo 7

Posted 07 May 2006 - 07:03 PM

Neil,you havent proven anything,you have quoted a study.
If anything,I have proven they have no effect on cholesterol by using myself as a test subject,as should everyone else.
I have always stated in these threads,as much as everyone hates me doing it,if you want to know what effect an excersise or a food has on you,just do it,dont read what someone else has to say about it,that is far and away the best way.
You wont die by eating 30 eggs a week for a month,same as you wont die by doing 20 rep squats,although it might feel like it.Try these.

Squat without a belt or spotter.

Eat 6 meals a day for a month.

Eat 400 grams of protein a day,for a month.

Each workout,lift overhead,off the floor and some form of squat.

Do a 100 rep set of squats with 60kg.

Eat zero carbs for 2 weeks,very,very hard.

See how you react to all this,then make an honest assesment as to its merit,and stop debating and quoting others.

Now about all that bread.

#64 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 07 May 2006 - 07:31 PM

School me will you :lol: Buoy oh boy, i just realised your main mistake. Don't assume that other people have correctly interpretted results (that goes for the authors of an article as well) and just quote facts from a website to support your argument when you haven't even read the abstract or article for yourself. Especially when the source has a vested interest in selling eggs "The Center exists under an cooperative agreement between the American Egg Board [AEB] and United Egg Producers [UEP]." :lol: C'mon buoy, that's just poor. I'm pretty disappointed that you try to attack me when the best you can do is copy and paste a googled page without any clue about the actual articles. You're right, it "could have been a good argument" if you had a clue about creating a proper argument at a tertiary level. I know you've been to uni buoy, you can do better than that :rolleyes:

I'm going to assume you actually want to learn, so i've attached full copies of the important studies, in particular the meta-analysis by Weggeman.


m&m, i understand you may not have done studies in the science field, which this debate pertains to, so i'll help you out. Anything in science needs to be backed by evidence to prove a case. Cancer drugs are tested on hundreds of people rather than just 1 so we know what effects it will have in the majority of people, when controlled for other variables. Of course people go against the norm, that's what individual variation is about. I've had patients who've smoked 2 packs a day of cigarettes for 50 years, yet have perfectly healthy lungs. So can we then say that cigarettes do not cause lung damage? Of course not, take a sample of 100 patients with the same smoking history and the significant portion of them will have severe lung damage, that's what studies are about. The same applies in this case. Of course there is going to be case studies that go against the norm, but in science case studies rate as the 2nd lowest form of evidence, 2nd only to expert opinion. The strongest form of evidence are randomised control trials (RCTs) and meta-analyses.

Even in the case-studies of you, Buoy and 181mph, it may be the case that had you not been eating large quantities of eggs, even though you are currently in the normal range, your blood cholesterol might be 50mg/dL less. Only a properly conducted study varying your diet over a number of months with regular blood tests would be able to tell. I'm not saying that increase cholesterol intake will necessarily raise your blood cholesterol outside the normal range, but in the majority of people it will raise it to a statistically significant level. The "proof is in the pudding" is not a valid argument between educated people.

The fact that your cholesterol levels are in normal ranges (and as i've said, that still doesn't prove that it hasn't increased) is only 1 example, the studies above show the results of thousands of people who have other variables that may confound the results controlled for.

I hope you've learned something :thumbsup:

Attached Files



#65 180_mph

  • Joined:28-May 03
  • Location:Australia VIC

Posted 07 May 2006 - 09:57 PM

lol....

In the words of Lee Priest :

"The more scientific you make it, the greater the chance for screwing up. If you stick to the basics, you can't go wrong."

#66 SRB

  • Joined:17-August 05
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:600 AWKW R32 GTR

Posted 07 May 2006 - 10:47 PM

i once used 240 eggs plus n a week n i dont have a problem??

mainly due to the fact we were egging cnts from my apartment during scoolies lol

i think some of the fat biches we got had cholesterol attacks haahah

#67 IOWNU

  • Joined:13-June 05
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:R32 GTR, Mitsubishi GTO

Posted 07 May 2006 - 10:51 PM

View Postm&m, on May 7 2006, 09:46 AM, said:

Do a 100 rep set of squats with 60kg.

Man, don't you find that you cramp up after a bit while doing sqauts, I've been doing sqauts ever since I've read up on how good they are (about 6 weeks lol!) and I have two things on my mind:
1: What if i cramp up and fall over. lol
2: What if i can't get up. lol.

I have the feeling that I could go a lot heavier, but am worried of cramp/failure.
Any tips? Oh yeah, I don't use padding or a belt and my feet are always flat!

100 reps? Maybe with just the bar, maybe. :S

However another thing I have found is that my bodyweight has gone up, with a reduction in bodyfat percentage, on the same diet and no introduction of cardio. Now that's cool. Also the legs are shaping up nicely, I actually notice the new bumps and lumps lol.

#68 mr sparkles

  • Joined:26-July 03
  • Location:Australia NSW

Posted 07 May 2006 - 11:14 PM

diet is most important when your competing, every calory counts.
but if its for general fitness, build some muscle and look good is just watch what you eat.
no more maccaz, fatty shit, subsituting for wholemeal bread, redude late nite snacks, no more soft drinks etc..

#69 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 07 May 2006 - 11:47 PM

View Postneil_se, on May 7 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

Since you obviously don't realise the flaws in your argument, i'll highlight them all again:

Quote

The study also found that in both groups cholesterol absorption and cholesterol synthesis were decreased on the high cholesterol diet.
No it didn't, you've misquoted the results to suit your argument.


Quote

The authors concluded that "a moderate egg intake should not be rigorously restricted in healthy individuals."
No they didn't, you've pulled a quote from a completely different study.


Quote

The study also provides evidence which suggests that resistance to the effects of dietary cholesterol occurs in older men and women and is not limited to only young, healthy volunteers.
No it doesn't, that conclusion has nothing to do with this study.



Quote

The results from this study provide evidence that one effect of an increase in dietary cholesterol is a decease in cholesterol synthesis by the body to compensate for the change. The precision of this mechanisms helps maintain plasma cholesterol levels constant.
Again, nothing to do with that study.



Quote

As found in the previous study in healthy young men, young women have the ability to compensate for an increased intake of cholesterol by adjusting the way cholesterol is handled by the body. The data show that addition of two eggs per day to the diet of healthy young women has little effect on plasma cholesterol levels in the majority of study subjects.
Again, you've just made up a conclusion that has nothing to do with the study, then misquoted the results.


I'm aware that there's going to be individual case studies that disagree with the normal trends, but that's what RCTs control for. That's why we have controlled trials before, for example, we put drugs into production, not just "omg this guy ate peanut butter sandwiches for a year and it cured his cancer!"

View Postm&m, on May 7 2006, 06:22 PM, said:

Neil,eggs REALLY are good for you.

I realise that, but this debate started with the premise that eating eggs in high quantities leads to the increase in blood cholesterol for the majority of people, which i have proven with numerous well conducted studies from high quality journals.

whoa! better phone up Donald J. McNamara, Ph.D at the Egg Nutrition Center on +1-202-833-8850 and tell him he's been writing bullshit up on his web page lol.
http://www.enc-online.org/dietc.htm

huh? :huh: oh sorry, you thought I was writing that stuff? ohh sorry --- you num nut! :lol: those summaries aren't mine. Nope. They were provided word for word as they appear above by medical professionals on the Egg Nutrition Center's website (note .org for non-profit organisation, goverment affiliated which also means they publish information papers and research via universities such as Penn State university http://nirc.cas.psu....ne.cfm?area=370 ) with government approval - run by Medical Doctors and members in association with federal and state public health agenices. In your effort to thwart what you must have considered "my" intelligence level you've actually just insulted the intelligence level of "other" people - other medically seasoned professionals that obviously outqualify and outsmart you :) so I'd wake up and smell the cheese if I were you.

Those quotations weren't surmised by me, I was cutting and pasting them verbatim from that website. I guess you were hoping that people reading this thread just couldn't be bothered looking up those references (who can be bothered, right?) so it looks like you know what you're talking about and you save face. BUT I guess you didn't count on me pasting a link with ALL of those summaries posted up on a website run by medical professionals now did you? :no: nope. PWNED my dear son :lol: - So who do we believe peoples? *looks around* neil_se or a group of people with Ph.D's in medicine??? neil_se is obviously talking trash :lol: either that or the doctors are, and I have a hunch these medical professionals do know what they are talking about :lol:

thus, ;) I believe the latter.

neil_se you didn't get schooled by me, you got your ass handed to you :lol: if you're going to dig into the very basis of each citation, write to the Egg Nutrition Center and forward on to them all your comments on how they are misquoting studies and getting it all wrong my friend. :lol: I'm not even sure they'd even respond, but hey, it's worth a try to cement your superiority as the egg expert on ns.com :thumbsup: heh.

#70 m&m

  • Joined:16-October 04
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Silver Evo 7

Posted 07 May 2006 - 11:59 PM

Neil,I appreciate that you put alot of emphasis on studies of other people,but I dont give a stuff what effects have on others,just me.Thats my point,find out what works for you.

I am about to start a new diet on Monday,all I will be consuming is bacon,eggs,steak,eggs,chicken,tuna,sausages,eggs,fish oil tabs,olive oil,eggs,cheese,whey protein,cottage cheese,walnuts,full cream and some eggs.I will be limiting carbs to less than 30g a day for 12 days,then having a carb explosion for 2,followed by 5 days no carb,2 days massive carbs,indefinitely.My 30g of carbs will be coming from broccoli and some other low gi carbs.Probably thickened your arteries just reading that.I did this in 1995,absolute best diet for gaining muscle while reducing fat,hands down.It is too extreme for me to recommend to anyone,cause if you get it wrong it can lead to massive weight gain.I will keep everyone posted on how I go,usually crash by day 8,but on day 13,whole box of dohnuts.Please dont post telling me how unhealthy it is,unless ofcourse you have tried it yourself.

As far as squatting goes,my son came out to watch me squat tonight.I started at 60kg and worked up to 160kg,rock bottom.I then did 3 sets of 1 1/2 squats,all the way down,half way up,back down,all the way up.
Then 3 sets of pause squats,5 second pause while sitting rock bottom.
My son asked me what would happen if I got stuck in the bottom position,as I dont squat with spotters.I told hold him I would probably miss dinner.Dont be afraid of cramping,if your choice is get stuck or get up,you will find a way.

On that set of 100 reps with 60kg,if you had stuck a pin in my thumb,no blood would have come out lol.I will never do that again,ever.One of my training parteners spent 3 days in the Monash after that workout,asthmatic lol.He only got 87 reps,next guy got 100,next my brother did 102,I went last and did 105 lol

As for the medical stuff posted by Neil and Buoy,my brother summed it up best when he said"I just like lifting heavy things"

#71 Dan.

  • Joined:24-August 04
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 08 May 2006 - 12:44 AM

M&M, just curious, what is your background? Trainer, Athlete, or just have a great interest in this field? It seems like you know ALOT (and i believe you do) about body building/nutrition.

If you have stated it previously, sorry...its just there is a f**kload of writing there which i cant be bothered sifting though.

#72 sr180

  • Joined:05-January 03
  • Location:Australia ACT
  • Car:Nissan 1996 180sx.

Posted 08 May 2006 - 11:39 AM

View Postm&m, on May 7 2006, 07:16 PM, said:

Do a 100 rep set of squats with 60kg.


I imagine that by 90 or so, it would be the closest feeling to the wrath of god ever.


Afterwards, it would be the closest you could ever feel to actually being god.

#73 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 11:57 AM

ROFL buoy, you really make me laugh. Don't assume that everyone on this forum is an uneducated bogan. I AM a health professional and i DO have qualifications in this area. Heck i've had a paper of mine presented at the World Congress on Medical Physics and Biomedical Engineering. I've been arguing with health professionals and Ph.D graduates for years, why would you assume i'm too scared to send my comments through to the publishers of a website? I will certainly do just that when i have the time tonight, i'll let you know of the results if i hear back. Actually send me your email address and i'll BCC the email to you.

Quote

I guess you were hoping that people reading this thread just couldn't be bothered looking up those references
I DID attach the full articles so people with half a brain could read the full articles for themselves, how dumb are you? I've spent years critically evaluating topics such as this, i have the training and qualifications to be doing exactly what i just did. Anyone with a tertiary education in a science field could read those articles then the comments on the ENC website and shoot holes in it.

You're one off those sheep who'll believe everything they read on a website, i get that. But i've given you all the source documents and you're still to stupid to read them? Have you ever actually written a university paper or research study? If you quoted a webpage you'd send a lecturer into hysterics. Any moron can write a webpage, but to be published in a journal you have to go through a board, reviews by peers, and numerous reviews and re-writes.

I know you can write big words and philosophical articles, i respect that. But you've got no qualifications or knowledge in this area so all you can do is quote some page that you googled. I asked you not to use second hand information and you did exactly that. You'll probably come back with some quote from wikipedia :lol: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. You're out of your depth buoy, go back a fix a database or something.


I've found all source documents, read them, quoted what the RESEARCHERS actually found, without needing to misconstrue meanings and make unrelated conclusions. All you can do is quote something you've never read, and have no idea of the meaning of. I've seen it happen on here before and its just happened again, you just don't have the self dignity to admit when you're wrong. If you really still think you've pwned me then you're dumber than i ever had you pegged for, and everyone here can see that :rolleyes:

#74 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:12 PM

bwahahahahaahahahah.... that was great! :) if I wasn't laughing so hard i'd give you a star for persistence. You're like one of those children who strive so hard to be great. It's fantastic :).

what can I say. for a kid your age to be fighting with ph.d people - how old are you? hmmm... born 1983. :thumbsup: i honestly think got a lot of guts.... but apart from all the hot air you keep blowing up your own arse, you don't know what you're talking about. Still, take on the entire western world! GO SON!!! PROVE to everyone that you are right and everyone else is wrong! That's the way.

lol

ps: can't get more direct than this Ph.D professor being quoted:

Quote

Assumption: Eggs are too high in cholesterol to be eaten often. Fact: Research shows that eating cholesterol-rich food does not significantly increase blood cholesterol levels in most people. According to Dr. Walter Willett, chairman of the Harvard School of Public Health's Department of Nutrition, "No research has ever shown that people who eat more eggs have more heart attacks than people who eat fewer."
http://washingtontim...00502-2072r.htm

dude, I suggest you start at the top. There are about 1.48 million page hits in google when I type in "eggs increase blood cholesterol" without quotes. I AM STRUGGLING to find one that actually doesn't have "it was assumed that" or the word "not" in there. They are all agreeing with me. Page after PAGE after PAGE.

So, when you've done writing to the Egg Nutrition Board of washington, you can then start at the top of the google search results page. You only have another million or so references to challenge. Then your view would be completely unchallenged :lol:

#75 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:22 PM

That's right buoy, you got showed up by a 'kid'. Bet you feel great :lol: If that's the best argument you can come up with then you've made a complete fool of yourself. It doesn't take 'guts' to prove people wrong, it take intelligence and education.

Why don't you tell us what education you have in this field? I bet your degree in Computer 'Science' helps you a lot in this area (although from the way you construct an argument it doesn't sound like you actually finished/passed).

You've still provided no case to support your argument, you're just trying to insult me to claw your way out of the hole you've dug for yourself. Are you scared that people will realise what a fraud you are and knock you down from the 'demi-god' pedestal you think you still atop?

#76 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:30 PM

Yes I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in Computing and Information Systems from Macquarie University, graduating class of 2000.

I passed, so your assessment on me is incorrect :)

I have provided you with the google results that show you in excess of 1 million page hits, and I have used words that are TRYING to support your argument "eggs increase blood cholesterol" and as you can see my son, you have the entire world against you.

Good luck.

PS: I find it funny how I'm treated like the big cahoona everyone tries to bring down :lol: - I'm flattered. But your argument is really an uphill battle. I'm searching for information trying to support your argument and its very hard to find anything except anecdotal and circumstantial bits and pieces.

#77 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:36 PM

View Postbuoy, on May 8 2006, 01:55 PM, said:

ps: can't get more direct than this Ph.D professor being quoted:

Quote

Assumption: Eggs are too high in cholesterol to be eaten often. Fact: Research shows that eating cholesterol-rich food does not significantly increase blood cholesterol levels in most people. According to Dr. Walter Willett, chairman of the Harvard School of Public Health's Department of Nutrition, "No research has ever shown that people who eat more eggs have more heart attacks than people who eat fewer."
http://washingtontim...00502-2072r.htm

dude, I suggest you start at the top. There are about 1.48 million page hits in google when I type in "eggs increase blood cholesterol" without quotes. I AM STRUGGLING to find one that actually doesn't have "it was assumed that" or the word "not" in there. They are all agreeing with me. Page after PAGE after PAGE.

We're not having the argument that eggs=heart attacks, is it really that hard to understand? Why would i care what google says, when i've provided actual evidence and statistical figures to back up my case, and you haven't provided one? I bet most of those pages are talking about quantities of eggs in the 1-2 range, again not the argument we're having which you seem to be finding hard to grasp. Perhaps you should read what i wrote for m&m above and get an understanding of levels of evidence. Some chick with no qualifications from the Washington Post doesn't even rate a 5. The Doctors opinion certainly does, but its completely unrelated to this argument.

View Postbuoy, on May 8 2006, 02:13 PM, said:

But your argument is really an uphill battle. I'm searching for information trying to support your argument and its very hard to find anything except anecdotal and circumstantial bits and pieces.

I just showed you at least 6 articles proving exactly what i said, my God how stupid are you? I went to the effort of attaching them for you and you still say that crap? You're the one giving me anecdotal evidence or yourself and the results of a google search and haven't given me a since factual statement :wacko: You're the typical forum warrior for which google is the be-all and end-all of proof. Get off your computer and get out in the real world, have a discussion with a real academic. That shit won't hold up in a proper discussion, educated people need actual facts from _credible_ sources.

View Postbuoy, on May 8 2006, 02:13 PM, said:

I passed, so your assessment on me is incorrect :)
You're right on that one, and given the juvenile and baseless argument you've provided here i am truly astonished.

#78 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 02:30 PM

View Postdan_24, on May 8 2006, 01:27 AM, said:

M&M, just curious, what is your background? Trainer, Athlete, or just have a great interest in this field? It seems like you know ALOT (and i believe you do) about body building/nutrition.

If you have stated it previously, sorry...its just there is a f**kload of writing there which i cant be bothered sifting though.

It would seem that buoy lifts weights, reads teh intraweb, and is fluent in the use of google. Apart from that he hasn't shown any actual education or credible experience.

#79 m&m

  • Joined:16-October 04
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:Silver Evo 7

Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:23 PM

I am 44 years old.I started as a gym instructor in 1979 at Lifestyle Frankston.I also instructed at Mt Eliza and Dingley.

I later trained 6 powerlifters,3 of them won State titles in their respective weight classes,67.5kg,72.5kg and 100kg.One of them set an Australian record in the deadlift.

I have an extensive library,full of literature on diet and training.I apply everything I read before I pass the information on to trainees.I coach junior Basketball and train some young athletes for explosive power.

I have helped over 100 people achieve weight loss or weight gain.

I have judged Natural Bodybuilding competitions and Powerlifting meets.

I have trained at Golds Gym Venice with Mike Mentzer,had a long chat with Berry Demay on his pre comp dieting,as well as spending time with one of the Barbarian twins( with pics).

I get around 50pm's a week asking for help.Tonight I will start my own thread where I will answer all questions and allow those I have given advise too to post up there results.It will not be a thread where people want to argue with me,just advise for those that need it.Discussion will be welcome,I will also post up great excersises and routines.

Cheers

Markos

#80 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:50 PM

View Postm&m, on May 8 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

I have an extensive library,full of literature on diet and training.I apply everything I read before I pass the information on to trainees.
Now THAT i respect. You've obviously kept yourself up to date of the years with actual research and literature to support your interventions.

I can't say i've been researching cholesterol in particular for years, but i have been involved in research, studies and continuing education for the last 6 years in the area of the physical sciences, health, and medicine. I've had years of training in biochemistry, anatomy, applied physiology, physics, pathology, etc and throughout all those areas i have done in depth studies, experiments, papers and literature reviews using only the best information available. Its these skills that make it easy to provide an educated and well constructed opinion in any health topic. I don't pretend to know everything and i'm more than happy to accept other people's view if presented with a well constructed, educated argument, not this google drivel of amateurs.

#81 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:22 PM

*yawn* neil_se many of those articles I presented were for 4 or more eggs a day. but you may continue to throw insults my way and put yourself on an even bigger pedestal. thats all you are good at. :lol: and you're missing the line that says "eating cholesterol-rich food does not significantly increase blood cholesterol levels in most people" which is what we are talking about.

#82 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:48 PM

Buoy that statement is made by some journalist for the Washington Post. You actually expect me to swallow that crap from such a poor source? You want to give me a quote from Naomi Robson as well? :lol:

Read back through my posts from the start buoy and you'll see where i critically appraised the exact articles you just mentioned and you'll see what the actual results are. Every single article you provided found there was a significant increase in blood cholesterol. Forget some 2nd hand misinformation by an egg seller, read the evidence and make up your own mind. If you have problems with interpretting the results then i'll highlight them for you. I'm not in this argument just to have a laugh, i want you to be able to properly interpret data and make up your own mind.

#83 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:50 PM

ok well thats understandable and i understand what you are asking. I'm just going to post some more links that I found interesting here for general consumption:

http://www.lowcarbfr...cholestero.html

Quote

Eggs & Cholesterol
Some people just have higher cholesterol than others due to their genes. Other people can eat cholesterol all day long and their cholesterol doesn't go up. Eggs have suffered because they do contain cholesterol, and, like most things medical, the establishment makes blanket statements without taking into consideration the health of the individuals and with a small test sample size. As a result, a lot of people think eggs are just bad for you. The bad news makes headlines and retractions, based on further research, make it on page A17.

Quote

...Even now not just your average man on the street, but so-called nutritionists will tell you to avoid eating too many eggs or to remove the yolk because that's where all the cholesterol is. Not only does the yolk also contain a lot of lecethin, a compound that actually lowers cholesterol, but most of the cholesterol in your body is made by the liver and the other cells in your body and the levels are based on many physiological reasons. Cholesterol is a vital substance for keeping the cell linings from falling apart. The supposed linkages between cholesterol and heart disease have gotten mangled and simplified beyond any semblence of truth. I urge anyone to read Cholesterol Myths by Dr. Ufe Ravnskov, and all the other literature out there that shows the whole cholesterol connection to be incredibly weak...
http://www.lowcarbfr...cholestero.html

#84 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:58 PM

I can accept that buoy, i have no qualms with eating eggs in reasonable doses. The only thing i'll argue there is the statement "yolk also contain a lot of lecethin, a compound that actually lowers cholesterol". The substance lecethin may itself lower cholesterol, but it obviously doesn't lower it enough because in every study above where people ate egg yokes, there was _still_ an overall rise in blood cholesterol.

#85 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 05:00 PM

Ok no prob. So what people should be gathering from all this is that if you are young, do not suffer from hypertension, high cholesterol etc you shouldn't be afraid of eating eggs - even the yolk - but you should get regular checkups to monitor your cholesterol level and if it becomes elevated you should take measures to rectify this in your diet.

#86 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 05:25 PM

Just some calculations to finish with. Taking the findings of both Ginsberg (1995) and Weggemans (2001), an increase in dietary cholesterol of 100mg will result in increases in plasma total cholesterol and LDL levels of 2.8mg/dL, and 2.1mg/dL, respectively. So for someone starting in the 'normal' blood ranges, 7 eggs is enough to shoot their LDL levels up 30mg/dL through the 'near or above optimal' range and into the 'borderline high' range. The same 7 eggs could take that person up 42mg/dL of total cholesterol through the 'borderline high' range and into the high range where a person "has twice the risk of coronary heart disease as someone whose cholesterol is below 200mg/dL" (AHA, 2006). Increase the number of eggs past that and you'll increase the risks even higher.

So that's right buoy, its a precaution, not a contraindication. Don't assume that because you're in an acceptable range now that you'll be fine consuming high levels of egg. Get a blood test and be educated ;)

#87 buoy

  • Joined:15-June 03
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:RAV4

Posted 08 May 2006 - 05:33 PM

werd.

#88 neil_se

  • Joined:24-April 03
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S14A

Posted 08 May 2006 - 05:37 PM

The End.



Oh, i should mention the other exception is cystic fibrosis suffers. Those poor little guys get to hoe into as much eggs, mars bars, chocolate and cholesterol as they can (including through a peg during the night) because they secrete so much of the stuff.

#89 Dan.

  • Joined:24-August 04
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 08 May 2006 - 06:24 PM

View Postm&m, on May 8 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

I am 44 years old.I started as a gym instructor in 1979 at Lifestyle Frankston.I also instructed at Mt Eliza and Dingley.

I later trained 6 powerlifters,3 of them won State titles in their respective weight classes,67.5kg,72.5kg and 100kg.One of them set an Australian record in the deadlift.

I have an extensive library,full of literature on diet and training.I apply everything I read before I pass the information on to trainees.I coach junior Basketball and train some young athletes for explosive power.

I have helped over 100 people achieve weight loss or weight gain.

I have judged Natural Bodybuilding competitions and Powerlifting meets.

I have trained at Golds Gym Venice with Mike Mentzer,had a long chat with Berry Demay on his pre comp dieting,as well as spending time with one of the Barbarian twins( with pics).

I get around 50pm's a week asking for help.Tonight I will start my own thread where I will answer all questions and allow those I have given advise too to post up there results.It will not be a thread where people want to argue with me,just advise for those that need it.Discussion will be welcome,I will also post up great excersises and routines.

Cheers

Markos



wow. much respect!


i dont think anyone should be arguing with you about training and nutrition :lol:

#90 Siddr20

  • Joined:21-July 04
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Chaser JZX100

Posted 01 June 2006 - 03:20 PM

This is refering to the EGG argument you guys had.. some input here!!

Eating just raw egg whites results in the same (or worse). Egg whites have a huge amount of a substance called "avidin," which loves biotin. As a matter of fact, once the avidin-biotin forms a bond, the body can't break it apart. So you will develop a partial or full Biotin Deficiency Syndrome. Cooking your eggs (or egg whites) will quickly denature the protein avidin and will allow you to absorb 98% of the protein. In short, always cook your eggs.



Also Eating raw eggs (or raw egg whites) will only result in about 50% absorption of the available protein. That means that if you eat enough raw eggs to give you 40 grams of protein, your body will only absorb 20 grams.


^^ taken from BB site..





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